Why therianthropy should be divorced from Alt-H and possibly "otherkin" - "identity"?

So the plan becomes?..

The only options I see are to get our own word out regardless of opposition- on other platforms besides the ones heavily slogged over with "kinnies", or meet at a middle ground somewhere.
To at least keep our experiences relevant which I'm getting is what a select few would like (?).

Unfortunately this is happening. But I stand by my words in that just because a community changes, doesn't mean we have to. In a personal sense.
If someone from the outside wants to do some digging, there's a good chance they're going to dig and find TG (for example) and a whole slew of other content which may or may not be factual about therians and kin.

We can only give it our best efforts now.

I'd like to address some fundamentals to erase misunderstanding through ambiguity. I have my own emotional bias on the matter, but as always I would like to stay neutral. To do that, it's important as little as possible is left to interpretation.

Let's define "community" and what it entails
Oxford Languages defines community as one of the following:
1.a group of people living in the same place or having a particular characteristic in common.
2. a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.

"A group of people having a particular characteristic in common."
This will never change regardless of how much others diverge from the origin so long as the belief of being "other than human" is held constant. It can still technically be considered a community based on someone saying "Group A believes X, Group B believes a bit differently and perhaps less seriously, but they both still believe X"

"A feeling of fellowship with others as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals."
This, however, can change as we're seeing in this thread. So right off the bat we have an issue with the very definition of community; it carries two meanings that lead to different interpretations. Perhaps we should seek to use a more precise term to avoid confusion. You could find another dictionary that puts it in another light, but that underlies the issue of ambiguity when we're talking about preserving the "therian community" or "therian [community] history." How can we know what we're talking about to each other when we say "community" with a term so open to interpretation? Community should be well defined for the sake of this thread so we're all on the same page with interpretation of the core issue.

Putting aside the nebulous term, let's move on.

Now let's see what a community can entail
-A community is governed ultimately by its members, but more commonly by empowered individuals such as (in our case) site admins or popular voices.
-A community can either make decisions together/compromise, or fracture. As an extension of the previous, this is usually represented by said empowered individuals whether there is significant call to fracture or work together/compromise.
-If it fractures, it can either be considered another community or still a community with the other via an originating link (I.E. both communities are about therianthropy or being "not human".) This hearkens back to the definition issue.
-Members are not necessarily restricted from being part of both communities if a fracture occurs, further muddying the fine line between the two.


Food for thought.

(2020-09-27 23:11)Vintage Wrote:  The only options I see are to get our own word out regardless of opposition- on other platforms besides the ones heavily slogged over with "kinnies", or meet at a middle ground somewhere.
To at least keep our experiences relevant which I'm getting is what a select few would like (?).

This has pretty much been a dillema for years on the side of many serious therians. For years the discussion has been popping up left and right: if they scream loud, do we have to put ourselves out there too?

It's the typical situation:
Do I want Naia Okami to represent me? No? What else can I do? Represent myself? (Naia left the otherkin & therian community tho so I don't expect them to pop into any more interviews and documentaries anywhere soon)

but likewise:
A. will us speaking out do ourselves good? Or only harm our community more (one wrong word.. oops)
B. WHO is the one to speak out?
C. does it matter how others perceive us? Or do we have to focus on the education within inner circles which will then filter out the miseducated who stumbled upon our community through some (idiot) article?

etc etc.

And a delema it will continue to be, PD, because no one has those types of answers. At least not now, and not from what i'm seeing. What i'm seeing is a concerned thread over something that has been happening for a while and will continue to, which is why I presented those two solutions.

As Tiger said

Quote:A community can either make decisions together/compromise, or fracture. As an extension of the previous, this is usually represented by said empowered individuals whether there is significant call to fracture or work together/compromise.
-If it fractures, it can either be considered another community or still a community with the other via an originating link (I.E. both communities are about therianthropy or being "not human".) This hearkens back to the definition issue.
-Members are not necessarily restricted from being part of both communities if a fracture occurs, further muddying the fine line between the two

This is a natural thing. If we do decide to split, we should understand the consequences of doing so, not just be in a mad rush to get away from the "kinnies". If you completely isolate the therian community then the more likely it is we will be forgotten about as a whole. Our community is smaller than the greater umbrella term (which yes, we are a part of an umbrella). Separating us will expedite the erasing of our relevance as a community-- not a sudden influx of kinnies. They've been here for years, and yet people gravitate towards the more serious side of therianthropy as they get older. Most kinnies are young.

These views are shared in that 'Rise of kinnies' thread, so even in reading that, i'm willing to bet there will be several who do not want to isolate in one community or another. Again, We are a melting pot. We can only offer resources and advice regarding therianthropy. Terms can be used differently depending on the community, and can be highlighted as such. People aren't 'stealing' our 'culture'. We are therians and therefore we are a part of the greater kin community.

If you think we should be purist in our terms, or if you're fearing what has been happening even back in the Alt.horror-werewolves time (kinnes were those who identified with,not as, and often were their favorite animal. They existed, exist now, and we lived through all that), then perhaps the community as a whole is no longer what you seek. What you seek, with restrictions and pure pursuits is more along the lines of, and yes i'll say it, a cult by upholding traditional values and worrying about outsiders changing things. Worrying to the point of 'we need to separate to protect what we made'. I hope it is realized that that's what a cult is by definition, and NO it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But as I said, the separation will expedite the erasing of our history faster than what "kinnies" are doing. Let the community breathe and change and go from there.

Hey,

(2020-09-28 7:35)PinkDolphin Wrote:  A. will us speaking out do ourselves good? Or only harm our community more (one wrong word.. oops)
B. WHO is the one to speak out?
C. does it matter how others perceive us? Or do we have to focus on the education within inner circles which will then filter out the miseducated who stumbled upon our community through some (idiot) article?

My answer to these is simple: We will speak for ourselves. This thread is public.

We put it out there in the hopes that it will serve to educate and inform those not already familiar with the content.

It's a little bit of everything... People do find us over Google and what Google finds is based on what we write about here. Google strives to be useful and therefore in effect, these posts have a good chance to be read by people interested in the content.

Whether or not it matters what they believe, I think it matters because the people who are most likely to find these posts are also the people that we as a community interact with in some way. Some are future members, others are friends (and enemies) of TG who reblog our posts in other places on the Internet. Ultimately them understanding us properly affects us directly.

Which brings me to my next point...

(2020-09-28 10:38)Vintage Wrote:  These views are shared in that 'Rise of kinnies' thread, so even in reading that, i'm willing to bet there will be several who do not want to isolate in one community or another. Again, We are a melting pot. We can only offer resources and advice regarding therianthropy. Terms can be used differently depending on the community, and can be highlighted as such. People aren't 'stealing' our 'culture'. We are therians and therefore we are a part of the greater kin community.

I agree with most of this sentiment in saying that the people who end up on TG to learn about Theranthropy, are mostly young people who are just learning about Therianthropy and therefore may or may not be Therians and probably don't have a clear idea about what Therianthropy is yet. There will inevitably be "kinnines" among them, or at least Therians who aren't sure if they should be regarded as "kinnies" or not. You cannot be here to educate about Therianthropy without having to deal with people who do not understand Therianthropy yet, it obviously goes hand in hand.

And yes, this will invariably create a "melting point" environment. But the fault in reasoning here is, that we are not obligated to accept everything that comes out of this "melting pot". We can (and probably should) be here to set the standard about what is or is not, proper understanding of Therianthropy. We can ask the hard questions. We can expect the answers. We can expect our community members to question their experiences.

We don't have to allow the true meaning of Therianthropy to be eroded away by poor comprehension or wishful thinking.


Tumblr may well be a lost cause though. It is an echo chamber by design and will only propagate popular ideas. Like I said before Therianthropy doesn't have to be popular and I'd argue it isn't going to be, so we don't stand a chance. I think it's a closed community though, so we don't have to worry about it, it should be much easier to find TG than someone's misinformed Tumblr blog.

LP,
Dusty

(2020-09-27 20:28)Vintage Wrote:  We don't have a "culture". We have a history. yes. Anthropologically speaking, we have a history of collective experiences. Not rules or traditions.

Just being a pedant, but this isn't strictly true.

Therians have things like "Howls", we have a celebratory day tied to the first of them which has been acknowledged for more than 25 years, there are particular things that often occur at howls, such as a signed item, fire jumping, and communal food. I would argue that these represent a culture, and most certainly traditions.

The trouble is, our history and culture are being forgotten. If I talk about a "ranger", how many young therians would know what I meant? Dissociative aspects of therianthropy, which made up a huge portion of the community expreiences back in the day, and was the primary reason why changes in mental state were called "shifts" early on -- is now actively discouraged in many of the new spaces, because it is seen as strange and not clean enough for the mainstream. It gets swept under the rug, "You are the animal! What you describe is plurality." No, it isn't, it's completely distinct.

Our history is being neglected... I've read huge amounts of the AHWW archive. It's there for download, or readable on google groups. It's a primer on therian history, and yet few young therians avail themselves of it -- even to just search for topics of interest to them and see what was said about it.

I've tried to explain these things when I was on therian amino. And was explicitly told that some of them were "harmful to young therians" and would "make us look bad". My posts were deleted by mods. I don't care how it makes us "look" -- I care about honest self-evaluation and understanding.

When I attempted to join several Facebook therian groups, I was told my experiences "weren't therianthropy." If my experiences aren't therianthropy, then what are they?!

It's all just so frustrating.

Agreeing with dust that it's easier to find TG than misinformation blog posts. However, that is if one is looking for a forum to begin with.

We already know tumblr and amino are filled with toxic individuals and young therians who will follow the upwards trend on those platforms. It's frustrating, but it is something that happens regardless.

Even outside of the kin community, we see this happen over time. People will come to their own conclusions, and I still say a chunk of these younger impressionable crowds will search for deeper meaning. Maybe even find TG through that.
.
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Separating our community is not the answer, in my opinion.

I think I agree most with BearX here. It's one thing to call yourself a kinnie and use our terminology, but a problem really starts when they start gatekeeping us from the community that we as therians started, because perhaps it doesnt fit their own
narrative on what they want to be the truth.
I'm not saying we shouldnt allow these people into our spaces, but it's a bit of a double standard when we arent accepted into theirs.

After reading back through this, I realize that this is a simple problem which consists of two parts.

A. Therians feeling oppressed, misrepresented and misconstrued by the "umbrella" people speaking for them under the suggestion that these people are "the greater community".

B. Therians being oppressed, misrepresented and misconstrued by the "umbrella" group asserting themselves as "the greater community".

Vintage Wrote:So the plan becomes?

First off, I'd like to point out that while therians and otherkin/Alt-H are similar enough to encompass significant overlap, therians and furries also share this significant overlap without these same problems arising.

The fact that a relationship can exist between therian and furry but it's problematic between therian and otherkin/Alt-H is telling that the real problem at hand is not the overlap, nor our shared spaces but the suggested power dynamic of "umbrella" and "greater community".

My suggestion would be to denounce this power dynamic by challenging the term "greater" and instead using a term which does not suggest that we are somehow subjugated or bound to these "umbrella" groups as we are not and never have been. Therians are of an independent origin and we have an independent history. We are not a spin-off, a branch, nor a division of otherkin. - This is historical fact.

When and where these problems arise, we need to speak up and debunk the notion that there is any hierarchy between our communities. If otherkin or Alt-H take it upon themselves to speak for us, we should remind them that they do not represent us and are not right to do so. Likewise, therians should not assert themselves to speak for otherkin or Alt-H.

Context is important here and I should probably specify that when I reference "otherkin" and "Alt-h" I'm not singling out individuals in our own communities who may be otherkin or alterhuman. I am referring to the status quo of the broader non-human community which seems to be trending towards accepting non-humanity as some sort of abstract, self-defined identity concept rather than an innate experience or intergal feeling.

I suppose this might all boil down to identity vs experience/feeling and perhaps this is sort of a case-in-point as to why "identify as a non-human animal" itself is problematic.

Lyc

(2020-09-28 15:22)LycanTheory Wrote:  .... instead using a term which does not suggest that we are somehow subjugated or bound to these "umbrella" groups as we are not and never have been. Therians are of an independent origin and we have an independent history. We are not a spin-off, a branch, nor a division of otherkin. - This is historical fact.

I’d disagree on this use/definition of “umbrella term.”
To me umbrella term does not mean “a collective history”. It doesn’t mean things originated from eachother, that one is a subset of another or the like.
It is a term that applies because of commonalities/simularities of anything within the umbrella.

Did DID or furry or vampire originate from otherkin? Certainly not. But they are considered under alterhuman (as long as the individual deems themselves alterhuman, as the Alt-H+ site says)

Otherkin, therian, furry, kith, copinglink, .. however all have commonalities and simular or overlapping experiences. Not the same, but simular. They are all “a human who isn’t exactly standard human” or “who doesn’t experience standard human experiences”.

That’s more so what an umbrella term represents.

So when i hear “therian is alterhuman & otherkin is alterhuman”, I do not connect both their histories. But their experiences.

And again: if furry is deemed alterhuman.. why don’t we de same clash between therian x furry? Why is it only therian x otherkin?

Maybe the issue isn’t so much the umbrella term, but maybe it lies more within our community.

Also, with altherhuman it actually was the purpose to put otherkin Next to therianthropy. And no longer have therianthropy be deemed a subset of otherkin.

Just throwing some thoughts around, but mainly wanted to make the point that I disagree with Lycans stand on the meaning of an umbrella term.