Lycan's Theory

(2021-08-19 5:17)kaiyoht Wrote:  So, I see the purpose of therianthropy as being more or less the way you describe it, guardians of nature. I think there's some difference for me though, specifically around like... what purpose the species of a therian serves to that end. I mean, as a coyote, coyotes in general are doing fine. More than fine, really; they've expanded their territory with human encroachment, instead of the other way around. So if my goal was just to serve as a guardian for coyotes, there's not necessarily a whole lot I'd need to do. But I see my goal more broadly, to help defend nature in general. Instead of speaking for the coyotes specifically on behalf of the coyotes, I see my role as bringing the coyote perspective into the conversation as a whole. Similarly for bears, wolves, domestic animals, and non-Earth creatures. There are different perspectives that are important to consider, and it's important that all be heard in terms of trying to achieve a larger balance.

I do agree with that, that we're not just serving our own species. Because I'm not even from Earth, Avask suffer no harm if this planet was to implode tomorrow. Yet I am motivated deeply to protect this nature as well. It is inherently valuable to me, regardless of specific location. I think as animals, regardless of species, we are more inclined to see nature as an extension of ourselves, wheras humans mostly view it as a separate thing from themselves, and thus there is no inhibition in destroying it.

My question for you then though would be, what is the coyote perspective? How is it different than the dog perspective or the Avask perspective? I suppose one could say the coyote perspective is anything you say, as a coyote; and the Avask perspective anything I say as an Avask. These things are so entangled with our human upbringing though, it's hard to separate out exactly what's the coyote and what comes from being socialized into this particular way of life as a human. Also how is your individual coyote perspective different from that of another coyotes? I've never met another one of my theriotype, but I imagine you have. Do all coyotes tend to have a similar view/ outlook on life, or is it very different? Does that variation come from the coyote side or the human one? I've always been an outsider to this, but I do notice people with similar theriotypes tend to get along. Is it human tribalism that like seeks like, or is it that coyotes naturally get along? I understand if some of these questions are unanswerable, I just wanted to put them out there.

(2021-08-19 13:43)Atlantis Wrote:  Do all coyotes tend to have a similar view/ outlook on life, or is it very different? Does that variation come from the coyote side or the human one? I've always been an outsider to this, but I do notice people with similar theriotypes tend to get along. Is it human tribalism that like seeks like, or is it that coyotes naturally get along? I understand if some of these questions are unanswerable, I just wanted to put them out there.

As a rule of thumb: Therians are people and people are complicated.

I realise this very thread is about the evils of complexity, but... you can't simplify people. Everyone has their own reasons and motivations, and therefore also their own goals in life. Everyone lives in different circumstances and has different resources to work with.

If that weren't complicated enough, we therians also have theriotypes that mesh in random ways with our human sides.

If you want to know -- yes, there are certain patterns you see with theriotypes over time. I've been more or less silently observing for these past 8 years and... you see different levels of anxiety and different approaches to groups... Wolf therians are shy but depend on the community for emotional bonds, hence why there are so many wolves in online communities. Fox therians are anxious to the point of pure paranoia and never show you what they're really about. Coyotes... @kaiyoht may well be the exception here, we've had so many coyote therians that... well, never really trusted the community with the truth. Housecat therians tend to be extremely distraught by the most minor changes in stuff they are used to. Stressed big cat therians need to periodically bail to have their alone-time.

I could probably go on.

But as far as what that means in terms of what we do... there is no pattern. Even though the environmentalism @kaiyoht mentioned is important to a lot of people, if you look at the stats of the points shop you will see that even therians can prioritise personal benefit, over charity towards animal protection groups, well... depending on the circumstances. 2020 has definitely been a warm hoodies and games year. No judgement, just data.

LP,
Dusty

(2021-08-19 13:43)Atlantis Wrote:  I do agree with that, that we're not just serving our own species. Because I'm not even from Earth, Avask suffer no harm if this planet was to implode tomorrow. Yet I am motivated deeply to protect this nature as well. It is inherently valuable to me, regardless of specific location. I think as animals, regardless of species, we are more inclined to see nature as an extension of ourselves, wheras humans mostly view it as a separate thing from themselves, and thus there is no inhibition in destroying it.

My question for you then though would be, what is the coyote perspective? How is it different than the dog perspective or the Avask perspective? I suppose one could say the coyote perspective is anything you say, as a coyote; and the Avask perspective anything I say as an Avask. These things are so entangled with our human upbringing though, it's hard to separate out exactly what's the coyote and what comes from being socialized into this particular way of life as a human. Also how is your individual coyote perspective different from that of another coyotes? I've never met another one of my theriotype, but I imagine you have. Do all coyotes tend to have a similar view/ outlook on life, or is it very different? Does that variation come from the coyote side or the human one? I've always been an outsider to this, but I do notice people with similar theriotypes tend to get along. Is it human tribalism that like seeks like, or is it that coyotes naturally get along? I understand if some of these questions are unanswerable, I just wanted to put them out there.

As @DustWolf says, it's not always wise to try to simplify people down too far. I care about environmentalism, but from what I have seen I don't think that's a universal position among coyote therians, let alone therians in general. And you can look in the box on the side there with my items to see that I haven't exactly put forum points here towards that myself. Interpret that as you will.

To your questions specifically. I'll start with, I don't know a whole lot of therians outside of folks I've met on this forum. By chance, I had already met a handful through other things before joining up here, but none of them coyotes. I've seen a handful of coyotes on here, and I'd say, broad strokes, some of why I felt like I got along with them was that the brief glimpses I'd get into how they thought (see something happen, watch how they respond, and so on), it felt... not especially alien to me. That being said, these were brief glimpses and, even then, it didn't feel like we were responding to things in exactly the same way at all. My suspicion is that, the sorts of similarities there may be between coyotes doesn't just work one way though -- they seem like the sorts of characteristics that folks can bond over for a little bit, but too much and you start to get fed up with one another. That being said, coyotes in the wild don't exclusively spend time with other coyotes: the inter-species relationship I know for sure exists is between coyotes and badgers.

More generally, the point about what is human and what is coyote is something I have felt like was important to consider and reflect on. As you point out, it can be hard to disentangle the things that are human vs. theriotype for any of us. And when we start to get into things like the way I think about the world, and perspective and so on, not only is that filtered through the fact that I've only ever seen the world from this human body, it's also that my perspective of what is "coyote" is also filtered through what human cultures think about coyotes. Coyote is a trickster figure in some cultures -- Wile E. Coyote in some ways pulls from that tradition while also drawing from other places as well. But, when I think about "the coyote perspective", consciously or not I'll be thinking of those stories, and they'll influence the way I think about the coyote perspective just as my own observations about the animal itself will as well.

That doesn't lend itself to many satisfying answers to your questions, though. Truth be told, if we speak strictly about experiences, the sorts of therianthropic experiences I have had mostly just say "canine". I feel phantom shifts from time to time, and if we want to get really technical I've tried to measure how far off my head I seem to feel phantom ears (it's far enough that they do seem bigger than I'd expect for a wolf or most dogs). But otherwise, there's not a lot specific to coyotes vs. other canines. Similar for my mental shifts. A lot of the reason I ended up deciding that a coyote theriotype made the most sense, though, was this sense of "a coyote perspective". It's not anything written down anywhere, so truth be told I could just be wholly inventing it (or, at least, pulling very heavily from human stories), but the sorts of things I've seen other coyote therians do and say don't seem incompatible with it. Like I said though, I don't know that it would be anything anybody else would look at and say "Oh, yeah, that looks right". If I were to try to boil it down into some core points it might be things like...

• A skepticism for power and those who have it (though not a foolish one; when someone else is clearly more powerful, no need to stay in harm's way)
• A skepticism for tradition (particularly tradition that isn't supported by good reasons)
• A desire and will to survive, even when doing so requires a drastic course of action or isn't the most graceful
• A care for the people close to oneself, but which doesn't always extend much further
• An ability to recognize and slink through the cracks of a system, and to keep a low profile while doing so
  

This list isn't very refined. The best rationale I could give for it is, from observations of coyotes, this is a rough intuition of how those behaviors can be rationalized into thought. But, intuition can't always be fully trusted, and it's definitely influenced just by my own way of looking at the world, which... who could say where exactly that comes from.

@DustWolf @kaiyoht

I'm a little bit frustrated my question was interpreted this way, just because it would seem to me an unspoken context to my question that the variability of individuals would be accounted for. ​I suppose it's my own fault though, clearly it needed to be spoken.

My question wasn't meaning to ask, does every single coyote therian act this way, but more is there a common thread between them, even if it's not obvious? If so what is it?

I'm not expecting every therian of the same theriotype to be the same. Although I will say I have yet to meet a fox I can get along with. By view/ outlook I didn't mean same exact beliefs about everything, I just meant general way of problem solving to certain problems. For example: someone is blocking an aisle in the store. One person squeezes past them, the other goes all away around. Or like you mentioned keeping a low profile or slipping through the cracks in a system. Or tending to be sceptical. That's what I would call a common outlook.

I also think Dust, your behavioral assessment of different theriotypes is definitely interesting. That sort of stuff you and Kai mentioned is really what I was looking for asking that question. Even if it is just a random trend, I find that fascinating.
Also interesting is bringing point shop data into it. I wouldn't say it's the end all and be all though, just because having an ideal, and actually doing something to work towards it are very different things. I think most therians do have some love for nature. That might be my personal bias, but I can't even imagine being therian and not having that love. You don't necessarily have to be an environmentalist to feel that way though. That's taking a priority, and deciding to act on it. And everyone decides how important or unimportant certain priorities are to act on. Like maybe a fuzzy warn TG hoodie is more important to people. It doesn't mean they're anti-nature. It's just not as high on their priorities list as it is on mine. I mean there's also stuff I value, but that isn't high enough on my priorities list to seek out

(2021-08-20 10:52)Atlantis Wrote:  Also interesting is bringing point shop data into it. I wouldn't say it's the end all and be all though, just because having an ideal, and actually doing something to work towards it are very different things. I think most therians do have some love for nature. That might be my personal bias, but I can't even imagine being therian and not having that love. You don't necessarily have to be an environmentalist to feel that way though. That's taking a priority, and deciding to act on it. And everyone decides how important or unimportant certain priorities are to act on. Like maybe a fuzzy warn TG hoodie is more important to people. It doesn't mean they're anti-nature. It's just not as high on their priorities list as it is on mine. I mean there's also stuff I value, but that isn't high enough on my priorities list to seek out

Of course I don't think anyone here is anti-nature.

Maybe this is an adult perspective, but priorities matter. As an adult, you find you can only do so much in life... a day only has 24 hours. You find that the things that are not a priority in your life never actually take place. So you find you have to decide what you want to do with your life, and prioritise whatever it is you have chosen.

The other limiting factor to this end besides time, is money. And the points shop replicates this aspect at least: Points are hard earned and so you have to choose what you want from the store... you want to get the most bang for your buck. And so you choose what you think is the most valuable. If a hoodie is worth more to someone than giving an animal welfare organisation more resources, that says something.

Of course, I'm not saying the choices people have made are wrong. After all, I'm the one who created the system that allows you to choose. I just think that if we're having a conversation about what therians would want to do in their lives... What they place their value in does help answer that question.

LP,
Dusty

(2021-08-20 10:52)Atlantis Wrote:  I'm a little bit frustrated my question was interpreted this way, just because it would seem to me an unspoken context to my question that the variability of individuals would be accounted for. ​I suppose it's my own fault though, clearly it needed to be spoken.

Ah, I apologize. I think I got the gist of your question, I was just trying to be clear about... I only have so much experience with other coyotes, so the information I can give is only so useful.

(2021-08-20 10:52)Atlantis Wrote:  Also interesting is bringing point shop data into it. I wouldn't say it's the end all and be all though, just because having an ideal, and actually doing something to work towards it are very different things. I think most therians do have some love for nature. That might be my personal bias, but I can't even imagine being therian and not having that love. You don't necessarily have to be an environmentalist to feel that way though. That's taking a priority, and deciding to act on it. And everyone decides how important or unimportant certain priorities are to act on. Like maybe a fuzzy warn TG hoodie is more important to people. It doesn't mean they're anti-nature. It's just not as high on their priorities list as it is on mine. I mean there's also stuff I value, but that isn't high enough on my priorities list to seek out

Well, and I didn't want to make it sound like I was just defending myself before, but the points shop data is limited. I could definitely understand a person who goes out on their own time and volunteers with one of these sorts of groups, or donates their own money separately, or does something else to help, and then comes to a place like this forum and chooses not to use their points to double up on that. But on aggregate, I think it does provide some useful information, so it's still relevant to talk about.