History of the word "Suntherian"

(2018-12-28 2:24)PinkDolphin Wrote:  What was a contherian in the past

https://web.archive.org/web/20051028221321/https://www.leonine.com/~lion/cthwww/mt_d_001.txt

(2018-12-28 2:24)PinkDolphin Wrote:  How is contherianthropy defined in the present

Still the same.

(2018-12-28 2:24)PinkDolphin Wrote:  Why did you, shortly, decide to create the term suntherian

I didn't. Wordwolf did.

He did it to resolve the situation in which Jakkal argued that contherianthropy can only mean what it was originally defined to be by Lion Templin in 1997 (see document above), even when this definition poorly fits experiences by modern contherians.

(2018-12-28 2:24)PinkDolphin Wrote:  What was the definition of 'suntherian', by you, in the past

"by WordWolf" and:
https://werecat.proboards.com/thread/304

(2018-12-28 2:24)PinkDolphin Wrote:  ow is suntherianthropy defined in the present

Still the same as WordWolf did. Or should be anyway. Some people think it's the sliding scale stuff, which it never was.

Though I recommend not using any of these terms, because they are confusing (and like I said, either plain wrong or not actually fitting anyone's experience).

Instead people should explain their experiences by describing what they are actually experiencing, rather than saying "this is contherianthropy" or "this is suntherianthropy". If a lot of people experience the same stuff we can then come up with new words which are less confusingly or exclusively defined.


Like I said in many of my publications lately, a lot of the community seems oddly fixated on the terms. The terms are not what therianthropy is about. This isn't an exclusive club of those who know vs those who don't know. I realize that the us vs them mentality is important to teens, but there are therians who are not teens too.

I find it funny how you and other people who frequent Amino kind of ground to a halt in your tracks and became completely lost just because I said the words and definitions are meaningless. I don't blame you, but I think it shows how bad the state of the therian community is in some places in terms of actually understanding therianthropy.

LP,
Dusty

(2018-12-28 9:06)DustWolf Wrote:  ..
Still the same as WordWolf did. Or should be anyway. Some people think it's the sliding scale stuff, which it never was.

What I don't understand here, is that you say (bold) that it never was 'on a sliding scale'
While the original coiner of the term exactly says it is on a sliding scale (see red underlined)

With 'on a sliding scale', we mean one might feel more animalistic one day, more human another day. They're never 100% human and never 100% animal, they're always integraded. However they do experience fluctations between how much/strongly they are integraded. 'a sliding scale'.

Seeing that, in my eyes, you contradicted what the original coiner of the term said as those two mean the same to me.
Could you explain what is the difference between the sliding scale and the fluctations?

(2018-12-28 9:06)DustWolf Wrote:  ...

I find it funny how you and other people who frequent Amino kind of ground to a halt in your tracks and became completely lost just because I said the words and definitions are meaningless. I don't blame you, but I think it shows how bad the state of the therian community is in some places in terms of actually understanding therianthropy.

LP,
Dusty

I think you're misunderstanding on what I meant with 'I'm confused'. I don't exactly care about what terms I paste on myself, I merely do so to be able to shortly explain to some my 'basics' without explaining my full experience unless we get into a conversation about ourselves/our experiences.

With 'I'm confused' I don't mean I'm lost, especially seeing I don't feel the extreme need to put therianthropic terms on myself and only use them to shortly introduce myself to those I don't personally talk to. simular to how we have our gender, 'therian/otherkin' and our theriotypes in our profiles on this forum.

I mean that I'm confused on what the word means, and do not want to 1. paste a word on myself that doesn't have the meaning I thought it has as then the label is useless as it doesn't have the message that I'm wanting to say with using the term. 2. don't want to use or explain a term to others when giving the wrong explaination of the term and by that spreading misinformation/lies.

SO I'm confused on the terms, and what they mean. As I wish not to use or share incorrect info around terms.
Not because I'm confused as a being or lost.

On top of that, I don't think it's fair to make a line between a person and an app they use. I'm only on that app to share information for those on there thinking to be able to talk to their theriotype by example. And to chat with my watchers (and a few actual friends). I'm not there to learn or connect with a community, that's why I'm here and why I don't see many therian amino-people as true friends but do see therian guide members that way. To make it blunt, it's not that I'm a TG member that I'm educated/smart/understanding and it's not that I'm an amino member that I'm confused/dumb/lost. The app isn't linked to the person, so I don't think that's a fair assumption personally. And at most, hurts to see someone making that line and having the use of an app define who you are (appearently)

WOOF!
PD

(2018-12-28 14:21)PinkDolphin Wrote:  What I don't understand here, is that you say (bold) that it never was 'on a sliding scale'
While the original coiner of the term exactly says it is on a sliding scale (see red underlined)

You misunderstand what this screenshot is saying because you are looking at it out of context.

What is missing is the original argument from the Werelist forums, which was lost. What is meant by these "minor fluctuations" is that the animal side can come to the front more if you happen to be experiencing animal feelings (e.g. "wolf dominance" ... feelings which are specifically nonhuman) and vice versa and it has nothing to do with the sliding scale stuff or being more or less integrated.

The sentence does say "fluctuations of mood", if you actually read it.

---

(2018-12-28 14:21)PinkDolphin Wrote:  On top of that, I don't think it's fair to make a line between a person and an app they use.

My point is you read everything and then became hung up on what the words mean and what definition was when, instead of realizing that the whole thing was a load of confusion and misunderstanding over people trying to fit themselves into other people's definitions, rather than talking about their actual experiences.

It serves to demonstrate your priorities. And these are in my opinion the prime reason why therianthropy is so poorly understood in the community.

LP,
Dusty

(2018-12-28 9:06)DustWolf Wrote:  https://web.archive.org/web/20051028221321/https://www.leonine.com/~lion/cthwww/mt_d_001.txt

I argued strongly against this when Templin proposed it because it claimed that contherians couldn't be polytherians, among other things. All it did was lead to continuing confusion today about what things are like.

(2018-12-28 16:50)BearX Wrote:  

(2018-12-28 9:06)DustWolf Wrote:  https://web.archive.org/web/20051028221321/https://www.leonine.com/~lion/cthwww/mt_d_001.txt

I argued strongly against this when Templin proposed it because it claimed that contherians couldn't be polytherians, among other things. All it did was lead to continuing confusion today about what things are like.

It feels sometimes like over the years we've learned nothing.

People still engage in the same measuring of eachother up to made up definitions instead of talking about, you know, their actual experiences.

The stuff you said in our last talk made a lot of sense to me. Maybe over time, if we openly talk about these things, things will change.

LP,
Dusty

(2018-12-28 16:06)DustWolf Wrote:  ...
What is meant by these "minor fluctuations" is that the animal side can come to the front more if you happen to be experiencing animal feelings (e.g. "wolf dominance" ... feelings which are specifically nonhuman) and vice versa and it has nothing to do with the sliding scale stuff or being more or less integrated.

The sentence does say "fluctuations of mood", if you actually read it.

So, one is always human/animal to the same degree. But the 'animal' part might be more or less 'shown' such as in behaviour or suddenly the strong urge to run away or such you mean? Or?
aka
So human/animal always to same degree, but 'animal' part fluctations in the way of the way the 'animal' is epxerienced in things we could call behaviour/'shifts' (I know you basicly don't experience shifts in this case but I mean things such as mindset, dreams, phantom limbs etc)/mindset.. ?

as I'm not sure what exacly you mean otherwise.
And it's hard to know what one means with 'mood', as this could have multiple explainations in this case. Including the sliding-scale one. Hence why it is misunderstood (probably).

(2018-12-28 16:06)DustWolf Wrote:  ..
My point is you read everything and then became hung up on what the words mean and what definition was when, [/b]instead of realizing that the whole thing was a load of confusion and misunderstanding over people trying to fit themselves into other people's definitions, rather than talking about their actual experiences.

It serves to demonstrate your priorities. And these are in my opinion the prime reason why therianthropy is so poorly understood in the community.

LP,
Dusty

bold: I believe that is currently the issue everywhere, in every online community. Instead of specificly amino (it might seem that way simply as amino is one of the current most-used communities by young therians which are usually also the most active online).

It's a problem of tumblr, amino, and even therian guide here. And probably forums like werelist and therianwilderness too. The only difference is that while people also get here confused about terminology and still see a lot and paste unnessecary terms on themselves, therian guide is the only place I've met so far that really questions if you need to use terms (instead of amino constantly trying to produce new terms which I'm heavily against, especially if not discussed with other communities and non-amino members before claiming it as solid) and really questioning the meaning of terms and if this is correct/experienced such a way.

Just saying that there is no reason to link an app to how a person is. Especially not a specific app simply as it's generally disliked. It's an issue all over the community, and probably even worse on tumblr than amino. Kind of makes me feel defined just as I make blogs on a specific app, because the app is generally more disliked than other places. (which I don't disagree with, it's not the best place to learn. But doesn't make it fair to let it define the one being on the app)

WOOF!
PD

(2018-12-28 17:29)PinkDolphin Wrote:  So, one is always human/animal to the same degree.

Yes. Suntherianthropy arose out of confusion and arguments about contherianthropy.

As I understand it, a suntherian always has the same degree of animality. What varies are their animal-related emotional states / moods. Suntherians don't have shifts where they take on animal behaviors, only emotional changes where they feel more or less animal. WordWolf's choice of words was unfortunate. Not shifting is what he meant by "integrated into baseline personality".

A better definition (correct me if I'm wrong, @Dustwolf) might be:

"A suntherian does not experience shifts, but does feel changes in the strength of their connection to their inner animal"

Sadly, the recent changes of therianthropy to be an identity have made a lot of the old papers and discussions not make a lot of sense. Even therioside, which implies that it is a different aspect of a person, sounds strange if one considers therianthropy as an identity.

(2018-12-28 18:12)BearX Wrote:  

(2018-12-28 17:29)PinkDolphin Wrote:  So, one is always human/animal to the same degree.

Yes. Suntherianthropy arose out of confusion and arguments about contherianthropy.

As I understand it, a suntherian always has the same degree of animality. What varies are their animal-related emotional states / moods. Suntherians don't have shifts where they take on animal behaviors, only emotional changes where they feel more or less animal. WordWolf's choice of words was unfortunate. Not shifting is what he meant by "integrated into baseline personality".

A better definition (correct me if I'm wrong, @Dustwolf) might be:

"A suntherian does not experience shifts, but does feel changes in the strength of their connection to their inner animal"

Sadly, the recent changes of therianthropy to be an identity have made a lot of the old papers and discussions not make a lot of sense. Even therioside, which implies that it is a different aspect of a person, sounds strange if one considers therianthropy as an identity.

I'm not sure if it doesn't make a lot of sense, as a lot of people experience in that way. The terms might not make much sense because of being 'outdated' perhaps. Then again, therioside sounds completely perfect. We also say 'my creative side' but we don't mean with that that we got a second human being we're connected to who's created. So no matter if it's connection + identity, connection only or identity only, that term sounds fitting to me at all times.

Besides that I don't think your way of phrasing suntherianthropy really fits as it's too connection-only in my eyes. Giving the wrong image that therianthropy is all about being connected to an animal.

To what I've lately been discovering, connection to an animal seemed to be included in therianthropy in the past (or perhaps even been the only thing at the very start? That's just a thought) but it is eitherway a + identity, there is just a too huge amount of therians who identify as an animal to be able to claim that therianthropy is connection-only.

So I think that wording would only confuse and make it appear connection-only.

I do agree that the 'with minor fluctations in mood' simply sounds too general and non-defined and is by that too easily confused to what 'fluctations' and 'mood' mean. Having created the misconception that they mean 'sliding scale' with this wording. So that should definitely be rephrased to be better understood.

Perhaps this is a possible wording:
"A suntherian does not experience shifts, but does experience minor fluctations in the way their inner animal is experienced/perceived "

(a lot of 'experience' tho hha)

The only problem is that in the last years, pretty much 99% of the community got used to the 'sliding scale' and I honestly doubt if we can make that change. Seeing just so many therians use the term 'suntherian' and 'sliding scale' as they feel that describes perfectly what they experience.

Perhaps 'suntherian' was created with a different definition than people understood from it, but the experience of the current definition is surely a big part of the community. And a big part now uses 'suntherian' to describe themselves. So I'm unsure if it's still changeable. It'll probably take years eitherway for the entire community to get used to another definition, espeiclaly knowing the community is split in a lot of subcommunities (like TG, amino, werelist,..)

However, simular to the theriomythic/therian/otherkin discussion. I simply changed my definition from therian 'is an earthen animal' to 'is an animal' or even 'animalistic being'. Weither they understand an earthen or non-earthen animal out of this definition, is then up to the person who reads/hears it. Perhaps if I start removing 'earthen' out of that definition, simply as it doesn't have a super necessary place in it and doesn't change the experiences of the term, others will too. And that's how it orignally changed, and that's how it might still change. But the suntherian discussion here, is more difficult as you can't simply remove a word.

WOOF!
PD

(2018-11-25 22:41)DustWolf Wrote:  

(2018-11-25 20:52)LycanTheory Wrote:  Based on this, I can't help but wonder what benefit, if any, there is in trying to split hairs in describing individual experiences.

Therianthropy, to me, seems to be far too contingent upon who experiences it to be able to draw out particulars and create sub-categories of the experience.

Why aren't people satisfied with "therian"?

Well, there are experiences specific to sun/contherians that others do not experience.

One excellent example is that the suntherian is never completely human, therefore it becomes hard to answer the question "What would a human do in this instance?" (and there are instances where the suntherian really has no way to know that something they did was not a choice a human would make). Those who are not suntherian and in fact experience m-shifts know perfectly well what a human perspective is like, since they are human all the time when not shifted.

"Splitting hairs" is therefore a convenient way of identifying who understands and can relate to the problem. It can be useful.

But yes, many people just go with "therian" and have no problems with that. The difference is only useful to know sometimes.

LP,
Dusty

Thanks for explaining the History Dusty.

I agree with Lyc.

I do understand the need to assign a word/label to describe what one feels. Like I assigned Snap Shift to explain the sudden vocalizations I experience as a wolf therian. I don't care if it's an "official" lexicon of therianthropy or if anyone but me uses it. Since it may only apply to me, and others might have other terms for it.

What I don't get get is this; Me for example, I only became aware/accepted my therianthropy in May of 2015. Prior to that I did some wolfish things (not as many as when I was suppressing). But I did enough to help me have a "light bulb" moment or two. So I "thought" I was just 100% Aspergers human, country music loving, truck driving dude. Then post may 2015, all that was turned on its head. Sure I still do all those things. But who i thought I was and what I am inside got way deeper, and more complex. So I went from thinking I was only human to feeling that I wasn't. One might consider I was effected. However thinking deep, I don't feel different deep inside than I did before. I have more freedom of my being, since I don't have to suppress anymore to myself. But I ask myself. What does being human feel like anyway? Especially since I roughly feel the same as I did then, just more wolf on the top.

So if I can't really discern what it feels like to be human and what isn't then, then how can I be expected to know what is or isn't now?

Now I used Suntherian, only because this all was a new world to me (minus a tiny glimpse that I quickly shoved away when I was researching werewolves/furries.)

Since I've had time to learn about therianthropy and its terms/meanings/etc, I decided to either use my own terms, or hell, no terms at all and just say "this is what I am, take it or leave it".

I often feel we all get focused on putting every thing we experience into little boxes. However therianthropy as we know is deeper than that. Hell, life is deeper than words can often describe.

More often than not people get stuck on ideas of things like identifying AS, not with, or how bout not identifying at all. Just say this is who you are and let it be that.

My belief has always been there is a bigger picture to WHY I am a Mexican Wolf in a human body. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I don't want to spend all my time worrying about using the right words, or phrases.

All I plan to do is Just be me. Y'all just be yourselves.

-Azi

(2018-12-28 17:29)PinkDolphin Wrote:  The only difference is that while people also get here confused about terminology and still see a lot and paste unnessecary terms on themselves, therian guide is the only place I've met so far that really questions if you need to use terms (instead of amino constantly trying to produce new terms which I'm heavily against, especially if not discussed with other communities and non-amino members before claiming it as solid) and really questioning the meaning of terms and if this is correct/experienced such a way.

I suppose it has to do with the kind of population of people use a particular platform. Younger people like to pretend that they are something they are not. And to teens it is important that they define what they are and that they belong into a community.

The Amino platform is made to appeal primarily to younger people, so you have on it young people and teenagers. And this is how Therianthropy become distorted into "You are a therian if you fit definition X, Y and Z." and so when people start to wonder where they fit in the world, they create a new word and a new definition, so that they can have one for themselves.

But all of this is just human nature and it has nothing to do with Therianthropy.


Furthermore, with the media being closed into the particular platform where most of the information people get is from the same platform, you also get the Tumblr problem, where people loose sight of what something originally meant (for example: the word "trigger"), because it is difficult or impossible to find older posts or tell them apart from the newer ones. And because the most active people are given the most credibility. You can call it unfair but I think many of these problems are a direct consequence of the particular app being used.


All of this however harms how in the long run Therianthropy is understood. Like we explained in Therian Talk #3, which is now public, people no longer spend any time trying to explore their own feelings, which may be Therian. Instead we are all playing a game where the goal is to do particular things, like make up words and say who is in and who is out.

Things have gone too far. Like Azi says here, we need to stop playing this game and go back to trying to understand Therianthropy.

LP,
Dusty