Sooo I have several years experience of working with wild canines, mostly higher-content wolfdogs, behaviorally almost identical to captive-raised pure wolves. I have had a close personal relationship with a wolf. I work with a public outreach program here to spread truth and good information on wolves, wolfdogs, and coyotes, specifically, and as such have had some formal education on the subject of their behavior. I feel like I can be pf some assistance here.

The first and foremost thing I can point out about *real* wolves-
They are the embodiment of anxiety.
I see a lot- and i mean a lot- of folks (less on here and more in the facebook groups ect but still) claim things like "their wolf" makes them feel brave and unstoppable.
Now, let me tell you a story. Once upon a time I was out cleaning the pen of a high content, 5yo male wolfdog. He had a DNA panel run by a company called Embark, a very reputable and accurate company, and came back as being 94% gray wolf. They have a margin of error of only 5% and he is, for the sake of the story, essentially a captive wolf.
It started to rain and got a little chilly. Great, mud!
Well, somewhere in the distance someone lit up their hearth and a stream of chimney smoke drifted over the treeline. It caught Mr. Wolfdog's eye and sent him into a PANIC. He squatted and shat himself and ran to the opposite side of the enclosure, where he paced frantically, shooting nervous glances at the smoke and occasionally stopping to pee put of fear, for FORTY-FIVE MINUTES until it stopped. There was no consoling him. He was distraught.

I have seen the same reactions out pf wolves and wolfdogs of higher content over ANYTHING new. Leashes, hats, a piece of raw chicken, a new bucket, a car starting, wind. They startle so easily. Always on their toes. The human equivalent would be something like a tin-foil-hat-wearing, ultra-jumpy, paranoid nutjob with a severe anxiety disorder. With socialization you can ease it somewhat but that constant fear of anything new is always there.

Wolves are NOT brave. That famed and often romanticized wariness we attribute to wild things presents itself as what a human could easily interpret as cowardice. Have you ever seen a majestic wolf shit itself out of fear of a dragonfly? It happens. Yes, even wild wolves like that. It is natural.

They are also extremely reactive and snappy animals (compared to the dogs we are so familiar with, anyways).
Yes, wolves are beautifully social and intelligent animals with strong bonds. But if you watch them interact, it's funny how overblown and dramatic they are. Although much of their "violence" is simply a social ritual and tends not to lead to serious harm, people who aren't familiar with wolves will often find it startling. What would be a "hey, knock it off, John, I don't like that" in a human or a tongue-lick and side-eye in a domestic dog can, for a wolf, be a full-on screaming match with fangs bared and snapping in the air, pulling out fur and seriously making noises you thought were reserved for werewolves and kaiju and horror-beasts in film. It looks like a fight to the death until suddenly they just stop and go their own ways or resume what they were doing.
They don't forget, either- wolves/wolfdogs will argue again and again over the same bullshit until its removed. In captivity this presents more of an issue because it can be triggered by resource guarding a food bowl or particular spot, while in the wild roaming minimizes that somewhat, but it does happen either way and is a natural tendency.


Neophobia and extreme anxiety are normal. So is being a loud, obnoxious, obsessive and grudging drama queen. Wolves, man.

(2018-05-13 12:01)Vyt Wrote:  So, as we all know, there are a lot of wolves. And it is often proposed or believed that many of these 'wolves' are often other species, and haven't researched enough or realized it yet. There's also a lot of caution to newbies about not letting human stereotypes and misconceptions of animals be how they determine their theriotype. And that's really easy to debunk when the misconception is "I howl at the moon as a wolf" or "I'm the gamma of my pack". But I think there are some beliefs, held by wolf therians, that are still influenced by human stereotypes of wolves, but in a much more subtle way.

Main thesis: There are certain statements by/about wolf therians that seem to be centered on wolf behavior, but are actually stemming from human stereotypes.

1. "I'm a wolf because I'm aggressive!" - Actually, predators mostly aren't.
(I talked about this somewhat here, and much of the text will be directly copied.)
Hunting takes a lot of energy. So to be as efficient as possible, predators will tend to stack up as many advantages as they can before attacking. After all, a failed hunt doesn't just mean not eating, it can mean the predator gets hurt in the process as well. So predators pick "easy" targets: the young, the old, the sick, the isolated. Some, like wolves, hunt in packs. Some use stealth tactics. In areas where humans and tigers share land, humans can prevent attack by wearing a mask on the back of their head- thinking they've been seen is enough of a deterrent for tigers, even though you'd think "but the tiger could easily win!".
In summary: predators are very conservative with their attacks, and will only pick a fight they are sure they can win. Large herbivores are actually much more aggressive. Hippos cause far more trouble for humans that lions do.
To give a wolf example- wolves (and high-content wolf dogs) actually make terrible guard dogs, because they tend to be "shy" around humans and back away rather than attack.

2. "I'm a wolf because I'm independent!" -Most wolves aren't, and you're working from the human perspective of pride.
This is an argument I've seen most when wolf therians are defending why they aren't dogs. So many of the statements will be things like "I would never be subservient to anyone". I've literally seen a wolf therian say dogs were slaves to humans.
Let's put aside how dismissive/rude it is to classify an entire species (and the therians of that species) as enslaved or weak-willed. (And that's not my relationship as a dog-therian to humanity...at all). Let's just look at wolf behavior:

• Wolves are literally pack animals. "Lone wolves" aren't nearly as much of a thing as people think.
• Wolves have much stricter dominance relationships than dogs, so 'subservience' is still a wolf trait.
• This pride in individualism is a human cultural thing (especially an American thing). Wolves do not have a concept of pride in the same way. When wolves and dogs diverged, it wasn't a conscious, ego-based decision about being "free" and not being "subservient to humans". That's an incredibly anthropomorphized narrative, it is how humans romanticize wild animals, and this prideful emphasis on it is really a human cultural value.
  

Gotta love those lone wolf quotes. In reality most wolves want a pack and usually loners don't really survive long without one. There is a reason wolves run in packs, they would most likely not of evolved to have packs if they did not need them. This may sound silly but all that stuff about lone wolves really bug me. Good job with your post, you explained stuff well.

I was unsure if my aggression was a wolf trait or human trait as you probably known by my post I made questioning the situation, because wolves are not really as aggressive as most think, but they can be when needed or if they feel threatened. My aggression I sometimes experience in not so pleasant situations I feel is a little bit of both my wolf side and my human side since in general I am pretty awkward and shy around people I don't know in real life, but I do get a more aggressive mindset if I feel threatened or am not in safe state of mind (aka not feeling safe and calm in certain situations).

@Vyt they are opportunistic carnivores, much like deer in that article you linked and cows (there have been a few instances photographed of cows eating kittens). Wouldn't that mean they could be reclassified as opportunistic onmivores rather than being labeled as herbivores? I know something like that would take many years off study and research for a dietary reclassification.

Also, sorry for derailing your thread. If you want to continue the discussion, I'd be happy to do so via a new thread or PMs!

(2018-05-13 20:54)coyote_soul Wrote:  

(2018-05-13 12:01)Vyt Wrote:  Large herbivores are actually much more aggressive. Hippos cause far more trouble for humans that lions do.

Just chiming in to say that hippos aren't has herbivorous as previously thought. They will eat meat off of carcasses, including from other hippos.

To my understanding, lots of animals labeled herbivores are opportunistic carnivores (i.e. they don't hunt, but will eat meat if its easily available). https://io9.gizmodo.com/field-cameras-catch-deer-eating-birds-wait-why-do-deer-1689440870

(2018-05-13 12:01)Vyt Wrote:  Large herbivores are actually much more aggressive. Hippos cause far more trouble for humans that lions do.

Just chiming in to say that hippos aren't has herbivorous as previously thought. They will eat meat off of carcasses, including from other hippos.

Aye. The Cinderella wolf is one of the ones I think of when people start talking about "how wolves behave" as though they were some kind of automatons.

(2018-05-13 15:13)MountainKing Wrote:  "Lone wolves" are absolutely a thing, just not how people think they are.

Hence why i said not "as much of a thing as people think." Both you and Dustwolf have pointed out natural time periods where wolves might be alone/on their own for a matter of time. But (as both of you said) the goal of that period is generally to find a mate (thereby starting a new pack). And furthermore, none of that is what people mean when they say "lone wolf", which is part of what I am trying to address here. It's become it's own mythos in human culture.

(2018-05-13 15:13)MountainKing Wrote:  I think adding a bit on how their social structure is not purely based on aggression, and more so to do with parental ties would be a good thing to add. Considering how many therians I see who still don't understand basic pack relationships, this might be something to try and dispel.

Trust me, I've been fighting the hierarchy misconception every time I see it. But if you want to, feel free to elaborate on things here. That's what this thread is for, after all.

"Lone wolves" are absolutely a thing, just not how people think they are. Usually around the age of two, some wolves will become what are called "dispersers", in which they go off to try and find a mate of their own. It's not a "look how badass I am for being alone", like some people think, but more of a "oh god I want a family" thing haha.

I think adding a bit on how their social structure is not purely based on aggression, and more so to do with parental ties would be a good thing to add. Considering how many therians I see who still don't understand basic pack relationships, this might be something to try and dispel.

Also how the terms "Alpha" (as in, fight to the death for leading role hehe) and the like only apply really to captive wolves in most situations, though Beta is sometimes used to describe a male or female who gets to mate outside the parental pair bond.

Really I could go on forever. Wolves are misunderstood in the most odd way. People want them to be aggressive, noble animals with super cool social ranks and all that, when the reality of wolves is much more interesting.

EDIT: I also think it is very very important people realize that sometimes, individual animals do break the mold. I encourage people to research into wolf #42, or "Cinderalla" from Yellowstone, and her radically different behaviour that shocked everyone at Yellowstone. In fact, her mother, and sister too behaved so differently! It's an amazing thing to read about.

All animals are individuals, and while we can paint them in generally accurate terms, not all members of a species fit the mold.

(2018-05-13 14:32)WolfVanZandt Wrote:  My impression has always been that weres tend to be more mobile than Mainstreamers. Most of the ones I know have bounced around all over the country. Some move in groups; some alone.

I meant the whole thing more in the state of mind sort of thing. What might cause a wolf to leave their home and run straight for 350 km accross country, may cause a human to leave everybody behind and go for another field of work in another part of the country.

It's always hard to say what is on my mind, but then a fellow wolf therian going trough the experience might understand.

LP,
Dusty

I can add that there have been many threads on were forums as to how theriotypes tend to be more anthropomorphized versions of animals than the animals themselves. We're affected by the culture around us.

My impression has always been that weres tend to be more mobile than Mainstreamers. Most of the ones I know have bounced around all over the country. Some move in groups; some alone.

I've been alone most of my life, stationary for 20 years due to work. When I retired, I joined my pack. We've lived in three places in five years because of circumstances. (Woof! I'm getting too old for moving every couple of years. )