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Plurality, systems, ect
searchingforvanora
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Post: #21
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
I never disclosed whether or not i have an official diagnosis. You've made a wrong assumption there Atlantis. As I've stated before, if someone believes they have DID they've done a lot of introspection. They might be thinking on that diagnosis still.

Trauma is not officially required in the diagnosis, no, but trauma is what forms the system. without trauma a system cannot form. endogrnics are not systems, period. i know what I'm talking about, i do in fact have DID, because i was traumatized at a very young age, and to deal with the trauma my brain formed a system. there is an irony in you stating that i (a DID system) am not valid, and then going on to defend endogenics, who by definition cannot and do not have DID or OSDD. DID and OSDD are also not spiritual mind you, they are entirely mental things, nothing spiritual about them. the reason traumagenic systems have an "uppity behavior" is that people who do not know everything get incredibly upset when we try and tell them that endogenics cannot be systems by definition.

For my own mental health, i will be taking a short break from this thread, as it is causing my POTS to flare up, and i simply cannot deal with the heart issues this is causing me. please think on my answers and remember that i have done a lifetime of research on this. thank you for being understanding.

legalize awoo 2020
2020-11-24 7:04
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DustWolf
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Post: #22
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-24 1:26)searchingforvanora Wrote:  an issue with saying that impressionable minors will see DID and try to emulate it is that DID is rarely ever represented

I disagree, it happened here just last week. Also if you've ever been on Amino or any community that claims to be Alt+H, it's literately everyone.




(2020-11-24 1:09)Kharyena Wrote:  Well, as a system who is relatively new here, we may as well weigh in.

Since the two of us do wish to express ourselves as individuals, and we are limited to 1 account per body here, we figured color co-ordination might be an effective way to distinguish us, so we came up with this:


When Khara is speaking, text will be colored like this.
When Yena is speaking, text will be italicized and colored like this.
This color means we are speaking together as one.

Does this seem effective? Any improvements or suggestions are welcome.

Sure would be appreciated if you don't do that on my forum.

Thanks.

LP,
Dusty

Most problems are man-made.

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 7:30 by DustWolf.)
2020-11-24 7:27
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searchingforvanora
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Post: #23
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Again, see what i said earlier. I will admit I'm not perfect I don't know everything, but in the spaces I circulate it's incredibly rare and unheard of.

Also no, i don't engage in amino as i don't have the storate, and i don't know what alt+h stands for

legalize awoo 2020
2020-11-24 7:35
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Atlantis
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Post: #24
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-24 7:04)searchingforvanora Wrote:  I never disclosed whether or not i have an official diagnosis. You've made a wrong assumption there Atlantis. As I've stated before, if someone believes they have DID they've done a lot of introspection. They might be thinking on that diagnosis still.

Trauma is not officially required in the diagnosis, no, but trauma is what forms the system.

the reason traumagenic systems have an "uppity behavior" is that people who do not know everything get incredibly upset when we try and tell them that endogenics cannot be systems by definition.

For my own mental health, i will be taking a short break from this thread, as it is causing my POTS to flare up, and i simply cannot deal with the heart issues this is causing me.

I wasn't going to reply seems as you were having medical issues and left and I didn't want to harass you. But as that seems to have resolved itself, and you came back, sure, I'll throw another one in.


You still haven't said whether or not you have a diagnosis. Of course you don't have to, but first you implied you didn't and now you're implying you do. It seems to me only someone without a diagnosis would have to beat around the bush rather than coming right out with it. Furthermore, even if you specifically do (which I doubt but okay maybe) it still applies to the general community

You managed to contradict yourself in the first sentence of your second paragraph, this is really something. "I am saying that according to medical professionals trauma isn't required, but actually yes it is because I say so" You don't own plurality or systemhood. It has been a concept albeit in different cultures and different terms long before your mental diagnosis because a thing. And more importantly we don't let people with mental illnesses decide the diagnostic criteria for their own illness. Generally doctors do that.

By who's definition, yours? Because psychology specifically tried to avoid conflating spirituality with mental illnesses. Endos aren't claiming to have DID or OSDD that's kinda the entire point. The definition of DID and OSDD is not the same definition as a "system" you don't own that word.
And actually I'll tell you the real reason you're "uppity" and attack endos for no reason; I've seen it first hand. The community is so insecure about their beliefs that it immediately attacks anything that threatens them without using a single braincell. We've seen this trope a million times before. Girl constantly insults other girls to mask her own insecurities. Christian zealots who realize their faith is hanging by a thread agressivly attack and silence all opposing religions. It's not hard to recognize when you see it.
You were right about one thing, "people who do not know everything" might get upset when you mindlessly harass a community who in reality have little to do with you. I think "people who do not know everything" are all people though, yourself included. Unless anyone wants to come forward as being an omniscient god.

Hiraeth
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2020-11-24 8:29
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Post: #25
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Let me just point out to anyone who might be reading this, that as a person I am quick to fault myself for any issues. This often leads me into a trap where all someone has to do to convince me that my arguments don't stand a chance is claim to be an authority.

For example:
(2020-11-23 18:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  plurality does not, and should not require treatment, at least not to the degree of getting rid of the person's system. plurality was caused by the person's brain coping with horrible trauma, and by getting rid of alters or even and entire system it forces unneeded and triggering trauma onto the main of the system, and may leave them worse off in the long run. singlettes need to understand that systems are a coping mechanism. now some systems may need help and therapy to become healthier, but you cannot force the system to come back together unless the main is 100% willing ready and able to accept it and cope and handle it, or else they will simply split again.

The identity animal and the main of the system should be the ones to decide the matter, as it is their own mental state and personal life.

This... sounds right. After all, what do I know, I'm a "singlet".

But what is written here is in direct contradiction with what I know of DID from scientific literature on the subject. @BearX and others point out the logical fallacy of claiming a debilitating condition does not require treatment.

This is not the first time someone has come to TG with the claim that their mental condition does not require treatment, it is an understandable, but nonetheless dangerous position. Even actual DID itself is after all a form of hiding from reality. As we have said before, if you have a medical condition, seek medical help, don't try to hide in online communities and pretend the problem doesn't exist -- we will not take responsibility for the effects on your health.

Don't expect us to be understanding of your behaviour due to your condition, especially if it is harmful towards others or disruptive.

Allow me to quote Clifford N. Lazarus, Ph.D. from his contribution to Psychology Today:
Quote:In truth, if MPD or DID even exists, it is amazingly rare. In fact, within my professional network, not a single competent therapist I know of has ever seen a legitimate case of DID. Thus never, in my experience, among dozens of clinicians who have provided treatment to literally thousands of clients spanning decades of clinical practice, has a single person ever been identified as a bona fide DID sufferer.

Quote:Hence, the danger for the consumer is that if a therapist unquestioningly buys into the label, the therapist will be likely to find or, worse yet, manufacture evidence that supports the diagnosis. Even more alarming is that some clinicians actually encourage behaviors that seem consistent with the label, which increases the likelihood that the client will act more like the label and begin to "fit" into this diagnostic category.

The net result is that the real, underlying psychological disturbance won't be properly addressed and the client will fail to derive any true therapeutic benefits from the "treatment." Even worse, he or she might be harmed due to the common emphasis that DID therapy places on "recovered memories," which in itself is a tremendously problematic issue.

Therefore, if you have DID, I will ask you to get it treated. And I will ask you not to advertise your condition within our community, possibly doing exactly the kind of harm noted above, to other people in our community.

Tumblr science won't help you here.

LP,
Dusty

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 9:29 by DustWolf.)
2020-11-24 9:22
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Kharyena
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Post: #26
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-24 1:26)searchingforvanora Wrote:  I would like to bring up that tulpamancy is not DID and has hurt the community quite a lot. an issue with saying that impressionable minors will see DID and try to emulate it is that DID is rarely ever represented, unless it is being portrayed as horrible and part of a villian (two face, dr jekyll and mr hyde, split). again, i am not saying it doesn't happen, but it's incredibly unlikely to happen.
Of course tulpamancy and DID are not the same thing. A tulpa by definition is created through concentrated effort. Take a second to open your mind to the possibility that even though tulpamancers have been a nuisance for you, some of their experiences may also be valid. The human mind is quite complex and adaptable to many tasks, if one spends enough time trying to make their brain function as if they are plural, they might eventually succeed, or trick themselves into thinking they have succeeded. And if such a thing is possible, then their perceived reality might have things in common with a DID system.

Have you seen any depictions of DID or plurality in media that you are a fan of? I feel like they way Jane in the show Doom Patrol is portrayed is relatively accurate based on our experience, other than the super powers of course.

(2020-11-24 2:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  The issue is people conflating tulpas and DID, and tulpas using things meant for DID (I've known many a discord bot that were abandoned because tulpas and roleplayers used it to the point of pushing out actual systems) and generally taking over spaces not meant for them.

That is quite unfortunate, it sucks that they couldn't respect the need for a space for those dealing with trauma.

I too have found parts of the tulpamancy community off-putting, some seemed to be interested in creating a tulpa as a way to cope with something, make themselves seem interesting, or to have a sex slave, rather than a genuine interest in sharing their head with someone for the rest of their life. If people who are doing it for those reasons succeed in creating a tulpa, there is a decent chance those tulpas will live in a rather tortured existence, poor darlings. It seems like for any interest that is capable of attracting people, not all of them are going to be the best. But you don't need to paint the entire community with the same brush.

Quote:yes being grounded can suck, but it is not trauma. rape, abuse, starvation, bones broken by your parents are all traumatic things (all of which happened to me) that can cause DID. of course, i should have mentioned this earlier, bu the trauma (98% of the time) must happen before the age of 5, way before a child would be on any social media, or else a system is incredibly unlikely to form. trust me on this, i literally spent all day yesterday reading the dsm-v. basically a system is usually formed before a child would be exposed to anything even depicting it.

again, i do reiterate that trauma is required to be a system, and as such endogenics cannot be a system because they do not have trauma. thank you.

In our case, if trauma is the reason why Yena is here, I suspect that a particular psychedelic trip in my 20's may either be the source of the trauma, or revealed that there was underlying trauma caused by an event that is unknown to me so far.

(2020-11-24 6:28)Tdae Wrote:  I don't remember anyone in the DID support community ever using the term "head mates" and I don't like it. It is a SYSTEM, not a group of mates sharing a brain. You are responsible for your system even if you are not in control of your actions, even if you don't remember what happened. It might seem unfair in some cases but it is your responsibility to work on your issues to your ability.

We've only encountered the term headmate recently, and those who used it appeared to view it as an umbrella term that included alters, tulpas, soulbonds, thoughtforms, and any other term for someone who is with you in your noggin, regardless of the reason they are there. Because alter and tulpa are both potentially valid explanations for why Yena is here from our point of view, they picked headmate as a placeholder until we figure it out.

We know that we are each responsible for the system. We know that we still have a lot of work to do on our issues, and will be getting help soon. We're trying to do what work we can in the mean time.

(2020-11-24 7:27)DustWolf Wrote:  Sure would be appreciated if you don't do that on my forum.
Noted, we'll refrain from that in the future. With how slow we are at getting thoughts to the page, spending effort worrying about extra formatting seems like a bad idea anyways.
2020-11-24 9:41
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Post: #27
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
I'm a system, although I'm not diagnosed and don't meet the criteria for DID, OSDD or similar. I do believe Tor may have appeared due to trauma, although I can't be sure as due to a lack of childhood memories it's hard to pinpoint exactly when or why he spit off. He's just been around as long as I can remember.
While we both agree trauma may have been the cause of the split we also have spiritual views behind his existence.

We have spoken about our experiences to a therapist who was pretty supportive and interested in our system. She did not view it as an issue as we don't personally experience dissociation or any disruptive/negative effects to our life due to our plurality.

I used to be very much in the closet about my experiences due to fear of others judging me, however in the past 10 years or so it's been more commonly seen within the community and so I felt more comfortable to share my experiences. It's still not something I discuss overly much on therian/'kin forums unless we're asked about it specifically or I'm talking about my cameo shifts (as I do experience shifts to Tor's form quite often).

I agree it's not something which should be used as an excuse. If someone genuinely has an issue which is causing problems then they should seek professional help, but they are still responsible for the actions of themselves and their system and should not use it as an excuse for disruptive behaviour on forums or elsewhere.

It is very sad how a lot of people these days seem to adopt mental health issues or disabilities to excuse bad behaviour. I think a lot of issues have been caused by this trend and it leads to people starting to think everyone is faking things due to the actions of others, I've experienced this with my MS recently.

Velvet & Torahmi
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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 12:37 by Velvet.)
2020-11-24 12:35
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Post: #28
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Oh Jesus! What have I sniffed into?

I have Disassociative Therianthropy. Folks have told me that’s DID, not Therianthropy. But it totally is. I don’t get any “special treatment” by the mainstream because of my therianthropy.

Why should this site pander to everyone’s issues. I’ve seen so many things here that “trigger” me. I don’t loose my mind. I just see it, panic a bit and move on. So let’s all move on. Please.

-Azi

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 13:43 by Azi_MexyWolf.)
2020-11-24 13:42
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Post: #29
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
A few key takeaways I've gotten from this thread are:

Pluralty seems to be a valid experience, regardless of it's origin.

I believe mention of DID may be counterproductive to discussing the experience of pluralty because it seems to bode a "science vs experience" argument. At least for me, this is a distraction. If I wanted a scientific understanding of something there is a slew of research journals I could comb through on my own accord.

There seems a bit of animosity between psychiatric/psychological pluralty and spiritual pluralty. This is unfortunate.

It seems to me that those involved in plural spaces may be insulated from or unaware of the trend of kids on social media acting as plural imposters and what damage this causes both to their own communities and to others. I am also under the impression that the frequency and magnitude of this trend may not be fully realized by plurals.

"Singlets" - is this a term that carries a derogatory connotation? To some, it feels like it.

I believe the ratio of genuine plurals vs those who make unsubstantiated claims to be is very low. Elinox stated 8/10, this seems reasonable to me. Despite this, I believe that genuine, well-reasoned, consistent descriptions of pluralty should be considered in good faith.

Threads like this, to me, are very helpful because they provide us with genuine examples of an experience against which to weigh baseless claims. It is unfortunate that sometimes discussions of a controversial topic such as this have the tendency to digress into tangents of who's right/wrong as such distractions are not productive to the end of learning.

Also, I do not think it unreasonable at all to question someone about their plural experience any more than it would be unreasonable to question someone of their therian experience. Blind faith is not good faith and is anti-intellectual.

Lyc

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 18:33 by LycanTheory.)
2020-11-24 18:29
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Kharyena
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Post: #30
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-24 18:29)LycanTheory Wrote:  "Singlets" - is this a term that carries a derogatory connotation? To some, it feels like it.
From my perspective, no. Transgender people have coined the term cisgender to refer to people who's gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth, no negative connotation intended. Many trans people suffer serious harassment, violence, and death threats from cisgender people, and may decide to vent about it. When viewed without proper context and understanding of what trans people go through, trans people complaining about cis people might make it seem like the word cisgender carries negative connotations. Some poor souls may be so beaten down that they come to resent cisgender people, and in their reality, the term could be viewed in a derogatory manner, which will color how they use it.

Singlet is a term that just means someone who is not plural.
2020-11-25 3:14
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