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Plurality, systems, ect
GhostofSolitude
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Post: #11
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
I was gonna say, what is the difference between something like tulpamancy and mental illness like DID, but that seems to have been reasonably answered above.
I'm much more likely to believe someone has plurality if they are seeking or been through therapy. I doubt a lot of self-diagnoses that are serious like that.
I also wonder how much of it is groomed into being? What I mean is that someone may have actually had a mental illness and a kid saw that online and sees them being helped and so reconstructs their own coping mechanism to it.
They aren't necessarily faking it but they are unconsciously forcing themselves to act like that. Like convincing yourself of a lie because its seemingly a better coping mechanism than whatever you had before. I feel like that would explain the increase of young people claiming to have it, but not seeming to have the negative side effects of it.
I believe some individuals do have mental illnesses, headmates, and what not but the actual amount of people is lower than whats presented. Sorry but I doubt a lot of people have it. Statistics generally say only .5-2% of the population has it.

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2020-11-23 21:27
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Post: #12
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 19:58)searchingforvanora Wrote:  there's also the fact that many systems and their mains have been abused by people fakinng this condition. a good way to tell if someone is not actually a system is by seeing if they refer to themselves as an "endogenic" system. that person may have identity issues, but they are not a system because again, you must have trauma to be a system.

The problem with this approach is that pain / trauma is relative. Everybody has once experienced the worst thing they have ever experienced. It's difficult to give people an objective benchmark on how to tell when they have been through "serious abuse".

And without these benchmarks, about anyone will end up telling you that yes they are a system, because they've been through trauma, even though their worst trauma has been the fact that they've once been grounded, or something to that effect.

(2020-11-23 21:27)GhostofSolitude Wrote:  Sorry but I doubt a lot of people have it. Statistics generally say only .5-2% of the population has it.

Exactly.

I've always been supportive of people on TG being open to calling bullshit when they see things they find hard to believe.

Furthermore, it begs the question whether it's even a good idea to come out as a system on a Therianthropy forum, as it is very unlikely you will meet anyone here who can relate to your condition. (Other than, obviously, impressionable kids who will try to relate to everyone's condition.)

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-23 21:42 by DustWolf.)
2020-11-23 21:38
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LycanTheory
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Post: #13
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 21:27)GhostofSolitude Wrote:  I also wonder how much of it is groomed into being?

This is why I brought up Tumblr, which essentially rewarded young people with social status based on the list of mental illnesses, pronouns, sexual, gender or kin identies they had.

A young person would go on Tumblr and see someone with 20 mental illnesses so they'd decide to upstage and claim 23 because mental illness was turned from something serious into a fashion trend.

That type of thing is what we want to keep well away from here. It doesn't matter if we're talking about DID, therianthropy or arthritis or being gay or trans, no one is cool with imposters wearing a mask to fit in and dishonesty should never be encouraged or rewarded with social standing.

The therian community and many other communities would have been much better off and much further along without that god-forsaken site Shake Fist

Lyc

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-23 23:02 by LycanTheory.)
2020-11-23 23:00
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elinox
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Post: #14
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 17:13)LycanTheory Wrote:  @elinox

Was it common among the older otherkin communities?

Back on Otherkin Alliance (OKA) and then later Otherkin Phenomenon (OKP), plurality wasn't common, however it was known about. We had a few members who identified as plural systems, several of whom were even moderators on OKP. I even got to meet one system in person last year and from what I know of their experiences, they are a valid plural system. So much so that when one system member fronts (that is takes control of the physical body) there was a marked difference in mannerisms, body language and speech patterns.

If I remember correctly, their experiences were due to the walk-in idea; that is, souls from elsewhere (in their case, mostly Fae species) walked into the physical human vessel and stayed. A few of the walk-ins were due to trauma to the human individual, but later it seemed that they were a sort of conduit that attracted other system members. And most of the system members, while Fae as their core species affiliation, also each had animal forms as well which aligned them with therianthropic experiences.

To be perfectly honest, their experiences seem genuine to me because how the hell any one person could keep track of many system members, with any sort of accuracy, seems incredibly hard to fake to me.

(2020-11-23 17:13)LycanTheory Wrote:  In the interest of fairness, is this something that could have root in spiritual beliefs or practice?

With my multiple friend, yes, part of the reason they are a multiple system is based on their spirituality and religion. Most of the system members are Fae, specifically elves, from Norse mythology who have a very close working relationship, both in their past lives and in this current one, with one of the Norse gods.

As for my personal stance on plural systems; yes, they exist because I've known a few over the years (3 of which were, at one time, mods on OKP). However, much like wolf therians, I highly doubt most people who claim to be multiple are correct. I think that it's likely that at least 8/10 claiming to be a multiple system are simply misguided and flat-out wrong.

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2020-11-23 23:48
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Kharyena
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Post: #15
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Well, as a system who is relatively new here, we may as well weigh in.

Since the two of us do wish to express ourselves as individuals, and we are limited to 1 account per body here, we figured color co-ordination might be an effective way to distinguish us, so we came up with this:


When Khara is speaking, text will be colored like this.
When Yena is speaking, text will be italicized and colored like this.
This color means we are speaking together as one.

Does this seem effective? Any improvements or suggestions are welcome.


I don't think I chose to be like this. It certainly hasn't made life easy. We'll be reaching out to see someone about this soon, hopefully the therapist I've seen in the past has relevant experience, or knows someone who does.

(2020-11-23 17:13)LycanTheory Wrote:  Should an animal identity that's a result of DID be considered therianthopy or is it more akin to copinglink due to being a result of trauma?

This is a question that I'll have to wrestle with as we work to figure out who and what I am. I showed up in Khara's headspace with an identity that didn't fit right. Through trying out various identities, I got a sense that animal identities fit better, and so far spotted hyena fits best. Maybe I'll find another that fits even better, maybe I won't. Obviously that's not a lot to go off of, but does this sound like it could be therianthropy to you? It could also be possible for some animal headmates to qualify as therian and others as something else.

(2020-11-23 21:04)Atlantis Wrote:  I actually disagree with the anti-endogenic movement, as I've met a lot of them. You say a lot of bad apples have poisoned the waters for DID...well maybe it's the same way for endogenic systems. A lot of them I've met are systems for spiritual reasons (like tulpamancy) and don't claim to have DID or any other mental illness. I don't personally practice tulpamancy but people should be allowed to carry out their spiritual beliefs as long as they're not infringing on those with actual mental illnesses

I actually don't even know if our system is endogenic or not, the way I've perceived it, I could interpret it either way. Yena came into my life 6 months before I'd ever heard the word tulpa. I do know that various tulpamancy guides and meditations have helped with making it easier to perceive and interact with Yena, and I feel like it is possible for a singlet to become plural without trauma in this way.

(2020-11-23 21:38)DustWolf Wrote:  The problem with this approach is that pain / trauma is relative. Everybody has once experienced the worst thing they have ever experienced. It's difficult to give people an objective benchmark on how to tell when they have been through "serious abuse".

And without these benchmarks, about anyone will end up telling you that yes they are a system, because they've been through trauma, even though their worst trauma has been the fact that they've once been grounded, or something to that effect.

I feel like it might not be possible to have an objective way to determine whether or not someone is faking being plural. It is inherently a pretty subjective experience. With tulpamancy, "fake it till you make it" is a potential approach to create a tulpa, so some people who seem to be faking it might be on their way to having it become their reality. Also consider that a recently formed tulpa hasn't had much life experience, and has their host as their main influence, so their first attempts to interact with the world might not look very genuine. Perhaps it's just better to judge people by their behavior, a genuine plural system can still be belligerent, just as someone faking this might be otherwise harmless.

Quote:Furthermore, it begs the question whether it's even a good idea to come out as a system on a Therianthropy forum, as it is very unlikely you will meet anyone here who can relate to your condition. (Other than, obviously, impressionable kids who will try to relate to everyone's condition.)

Well, from our point of view we are two separate beings, each trying to determine whether or not we are therian, so we can at least relate with everyone here on that. If we were to just try and smash ourselves into one unified front while figuring it out, there would likely be too many mixed signals and conflicting thoughts, and we wouldn't get very far.
2020-11-24 1:09
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searchingforvanora
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Post: #16
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
I would like to bring up that tulpamancy is not DID and has hurt the community quite a lot. an issue with saying that impressionable minors will see DID and try to emulate it is that DID is rarely ever represented, unless it is being portrayed as horrible and part of a villian (two face, dr jekyll and mr hyde, split). again, i am not saying it doesn't happen, but it's incredibly unlikely to happen.

yes being grounded can suck, but it is not trauma. rape, abuse, starvation, bones broken by your parents are all traumatic things (all of which happened to me) that can cause DID. of course, i should have mentioned this earlier, bu the trauma (98% of the time) must happen before the age of 5, way before a child would be on any social media, or else a system is incredibly unlikely to form. trust me on this, i literally spent all day yesterday reading the dsm-v. basically a system is usually formed before a child would be exposed to anything even depicting it.

again, i do reiterate that trauma is required to be a system, and as such endogenics cannot be a system because they do not have trauma. thank you.

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2020-11-24 1:26
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LycanTheory
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Post: #17
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 23:48)elinox Wrote:  As for my personal stance on plural systems; yes, they exist because I've known a few over the years (3 of which were, at one time, mods on OKP). However, much like wolf therians, I highly doubt most people who claim to be multiple are correct. I think that it's likely that at least 8/10 claiming to be a multiple system are simply misguided and flat-out wrong.

This seems reasonable to me. In a very similar way, I would say that perhaps the same ratio of young people claiming to be otherkin and therians (outside of here. I think most, if not all, TG people are legit) are misguided or flat out wrong and will likely drop the label once they hit mid twenties or so.

(2020-11-24 1:09)Kharyena Wrote:  I feel like it might not be possible to have an objective way to determine whether or not someone is faking being plural. It is inherently a pretty subjective experience.

I agree. I don't believe it's possible to objectively determine any trait of an individual unless it's a physical one.

I suppose that pluralty is much like being therian in this regard. If someone seems convincing, genuine and consistent, they probably should be taken seriously. I see no reason why they should not be.

That said, it can be quite obvious when someone claiming pluralty, therianthropy or otherkinity is an imposter. It's usually when they try and use it for advantageous purposes.

(2020-11-24 1:26)searchingforvanora Wrote:  I would like to bring up that tulpamancy is not DID and has hurt the community quite a lot. an issue with saying that impressionable minors will see DID and try to emulate it is that DID is rarely ever represented, unless it is being portrayed as horrible and part of a villian (two face, dr jekyll and mr hyde, split). again, i am not saying it doesn't happen, but it's incredibly unlikely to happen.

Ahh, this is where we run into trouble with "umbrella" terms such as pluralty.

Speaking as someone who is not plural in any way, I am very curious as to how tulupamancy has been detrimental to the DID community. From my point of view, kids role-playing or impersonating these things have, by far, been more harmful to both communities than either has been to each other.

And for clarification, when it was said that young people would see DID and be impressionable, what was meant was that they would see the misrepresentation of DID and other forms of pluralty, again, on social media and on sites that do not take these things seriously.

Lyc

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 1:51 by LycanTheory.)
2020-11-24 1:32
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searchingforvanora
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Post: #18
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Yes, as a singlet you wouldn't know. The issue is people conflating tulpas and DID, and tulpas using things meant for DID (I've known many a discord bot that were abandoned because tulpas and roleplayers used it to the point of pushing out actual systems) and generally taking over spaces not meant for them. Tulpamancy also has racist origins and is a closed practice, though no one respects this of course.

Again though, kids can't get did because of media, because at the age they'd be exposed to it they'd be too old to form a system. most people don't even know about DID and as such wouldn't be abke to locate or search out these groups, and it's so far and few between that I've never even heard of it, and it's not big enough to affect the community as a whole. I can see what you're getting at though about how children would see misrepresentation and then start thinking all people who have DID are horrible abusers or worse.

A reason for disclosing DID status is one, incase the system has multiple members who are therians who would wish to participate, two, to find solidarity with other systems who are also therians, three, to have intelligent discussion with other plurals where they can discuss how their being a system affects their therianism, because let's be honest, there's stuff that you just can't discuss with singlets because they don't have the experiences.

if you're a singlet then you don't have the right to discuss whether or not systems are real, because you don't have the experience necessary, nor the right. DID is an official diagnosis in the dsm-v (and if i remember correctly it has been a diagnosis (under a different name) since the dsm-II) and is a real thing.

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 2:39 by searchingforvanora.)
2020-11-24 2:38
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Tdae
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Post: #19
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
I self-diagnosed DID/OSDD at age 38 after having serious mental health issues and strange subjective experiences throughout my life. I repeatedly sought professional help and never got the correct diagnosis and treatment. I finally started figuring things out on my own with the help of books, articles and the DID support community. DID is a spectrum disorder along with PTSD. This spectrum describes increasingly severe dissociative symptoms and looks a bit like this: PTSD, C-PTSD, BPD, OSDD, DID.

I have found that OSDD-1 is the best explanation to account for all the mental health symptoms and weirdness of my subjective experiences (including a wolf in my psyche). I came to TG specifically to give more attention to the wolf. I don't think I'm therian but it seems I do have significant animal connections and it has been helpful for me to apply "animal-logic" to resolve some issues.

The term "coping-link" is something I never heard of before coming to TG. From the way it's described it just seems like role-playing to cope or escape. What DID systems experience is developmental starting early in life and not a conscious choice. Sometimes an alter can claim responsibility for creating other parts of the system as if it was a conscious choice. But I think it means the person or alter is becoming more aware of their unconscious mental processes if it's DID and not role-playing. You're a sentient, thinking entity even if you're unconscious.

It is my position that multiplicity is always traumagenic because it is too inefficient for a mind/brain to organize itself this way without a very good reason. (Aside from tulpamancy which I don't know much about.) But trauma is subjective and some things can be traumatic to a child that people wouldn't necessarily think of as traumatic. Some people are more sensitive and/or have a higher predisposition for dissociation than others. Autism can also be a significant factor because living with the effects of autism can be traumatic in itself.

I reject "spiritual" explanations for multiplicity for the same reasons I reject creation science, exorcisms, the belief that volcanoes are caused by angry dieties, etc. Dissociative phenomena are complex, mysterious and not very well understood by science, but we do have science to explain these things.

I don't remember anyone in the DID support community ever using the term "head mates" and I don't like it. It is a SYSTEM, not a group of mates sharing a brain. You are responsible for your system even if you are not in control of your actions, even if you don't remember what happened. It might seem unfair in some cases but it is your responsibility to work on your issues to your ability.
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 6:44 by Tdae.)
2020-11-24 6:28
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Atlantis
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Post: #20
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-24 1:26)searchingforvanora Wrote:  An issue with saying that impressionable minors will see DID and try to emulate it is that DID is rarely ever represented, unless it is being portrayed as horrible and part of a villian (two face, dr jekyll and mr hyde, split). again, i am not saying it doesn't happen, but it's incredibly unlikely to happen.

again, i do reiterate that trauma is required to be a system, and as such endogenics cannot be a system because they do not have trauma. thank you.

Except you couldn't be more wrong. They do see it all the time. Trust me I have been in the spaces where these people see it and emulate it. And it doesn't matter that the actual age to form DID I'd extremely young, because most of these impressionable young people don't KNOW the diagnostic material for DID. We had a member literally yesterday thinking they had DID out of the blue with no explanation. We talked them out of it but in most spaces with younger people it's not only accepted but encouraged with social brownie points. So no it's not ", incredibly unlikely to happen" it happens every single day.

No, trauma is required to have a Diagnosis of DID or OSDD. It's ironic to me that I always see self-disgnosed systems trying to gatekeep endogenics. Not to be more harsh, but the reality is until you get a diagnosis your claim is no more substantiated than theirs. Spiritual beliefs aren't always rational, but then again neither are the experiences that leads one to self diagnose. Are you inherently invalid and lieing? I'd like to think no more so than an endogenic system. I'm honestly just tired of seeing spiritual gatekeeping. Lyc is absolutely right that the roleplayers have harmed both communities more than you've ever harmed each other. And seeing this constant uppity holier than though behavior from traumagenic systems gets real old real fast.

(2020-11-24 2:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  Tulpamancy also has racist origins and is a closed practice, though no one respects this of course.

if you're a singlet then you don't have the right to discuss whether or not systems are real, because you don't have the experience necessary, nor the right. DID is an official diagnosis in the dsm-v (and if i remember correctly it has been a diagnosis (under a different name) since the dsm-II) and is a real thing.

Tulpamancy isn't "racist" it's not discriminating against their race in any way and honestly the fact that people still call it that is ridiculous. It's only a problem in that it's a misappropriation of the Tibetan practice of Tulpamancy. Should we change the name of what we currently call tulpamancy, absolutely yes. Should we run around screaming "racist" when there's no ill intentions or discrimination? Absolutely not. This just serves to further dilute the meaning of the word

Furthermore, I have every right to discuss whether or not systems are real. I'm not a faerie and I can still discuss whether or not I believe in the fae. Do religious people have to be literal gods now in order to get an opinion? Do I have to punch a mental illness check list card in order to have an opinion on mental illness? Absolutely not. I have an opinion and a right to free speech. If you don't like free speech then I don't think the internet is for you. The fact that you think singlets don't have the right, the right to discuss opinions on your particular mental illness is honestly audacious. Also poof, there goes your mental illness because guess what? That was written by a singlet.

Finally, this is exactly what I mean about kids faking it for internet brownie points. You think having a mental illness puts you in a place of social privilege where we're no longer allowed to question your experiences because we don't share them. Well that's not how it works on TG

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-24 7:04 by Atlantis.)
2020-11-24 6:45
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