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Plurality, systems, ect
LycanTheory
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Post: #1
Plurality, systems, ect
Hey everyone Hello

I'd like to have a serious, respectful discussion about the topic of "pluralty" or "headmates" which is making the rounds again, I suppose largely in part to the alterhuman idea of including everything under an "umbrella". Tongue

What we do know is that there are two psychiatric/psychological conditions which can cause this, one is schizophrenia and the other is DID which is recognized as resulting from a severe degree of trauma.

Here comes the tough part that's easy to misconstrue...

Here on TG, we've had a small number of individuals who have laid claim to experiencing disassociative identity, who have been very genuine and have sought treatment to cope with or manage the disassociation.

We've also undergone, at various times, a trend of young people who come here in spurts and use "headmates" or being plural as an excuse for poor behavior or as a method to try and dodge accountability for their actions. One of these people was actually a sexual predator who tried to say he wasn't in his headspace at the time or... something...

So, to me and to many others, pluralty is something which requires treatment when it is, in fact, something actually experienced. Why is this being glorified by the alterhuman community? My suspicion is that alterhuman stems from Tumblr and that Tumblr basically turned mental illness into something trendy.

Why should we accept anyone's claims of "pluralty" without a professional diagnosis or history of treatment when, as said, it can and has been used as an excuse or simply as an added "special" factor.

I'm not here to say that no one experiences disassociation because there are some who clearly do but what are some indicators we can use to gague what's a genuine experience and what's utter bullshit?

Should an animal identity that's a result of DID be considered therianthopy or is it more akin to copinglink due to being a result of trauma?

Again, not saying that all claims of DID, pluralty, headmates or schizophrenia are fraudulent. Based on my experience, observation and analysis of animal communities over the past 24 years, I believe that most are. This is a concept that was unheard of prior to Tumblr in the circles I was part of.

@DustWolf
@BearX

How common was it on AHWW?

@elinox

Was it common among the older otherkin communities?

In the interest of fairness, is this something that could have root in spiritual beliefs or practice?

Am I missing something? If so, please enlighten me. I'm not attacking plurality. I'm trying to arrive at a reasonable conclusion based on information.

Lyc

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-23 17:16 by LycanTheory.)
2020-11-23 17:13
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searchingforvanora
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Post: #2
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Hello! I have DID, and actually, there are more than just two disorders that cause headmates. PTSD can cause similar dissociative states, however from my reasearch schizophrenia does not cause this, however many people who have DID are often misdiagnosed w/ schizophrenia because of the intrusion of alters into reality. OSDD also causes alters and similar states.

Many people who have DID will often not get diagnosed because (1) fear of medical professionals, who oftentimes know much less about the condition than the person who actually has said condition, and (2) if you dissociate eveytime another alter comes out and fronts (which according to the dsm-v is not a requirement, but does happen) or they lose time frequently, then the person may not even realize they need to get a diagnosis, or that there is something wrong with them. People also shouldn't be forced to divulge their medical history for others to decide if they're valid or not, especially for something like DID where many people do not get professionally diagnosed for mant many reasons.

plurality does not, and should not require treatment, at least not to the degree of getting rid of the person's system. plurality was caused by the person's brain coping with horrible trauma, and by getting rid of alters or even and entire system it forces unneeded and triggering trauma onto the main of the system, and may leave them worse off in the long run. singlettes need to understand that systems are a coping mechanism. now some systems may need help and therapy to become healthier, but you cannot force the system to come back together unless the main is 100% willing ready and able to accept it and cope and handle it, or else they will simply split again.

The identity animal and the main of the system should be the ones to decide the matter, as it is their own mental state and personal life.

legalize awoo 2020
2020-11-23 18:38
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BearX
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Post: #3
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
On AHWW, I don't remember any claims of plural experiences on the newsgroup. There were dissociative experiences, but those were more in the context of ecstatic trance states or the kind of dissociative therianthropy I experience.

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-23 19:00 by BearX.)
2020-11-23 19:00
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Atlantis
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Post: #4
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 18:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  OSDD also causes alters and similar states.

People also shouldn't be forced to divulge their medical history for others to decide if they're valid or not, especially for something like DID where many people do not get professionally diagnosed for many many reasons.

I was going to mention OSDD-1 as well but I see you already have it covered

Yes, and no. It's not like you have to forward medical documents proving it, but everyone and their Grandma is claiming to have DID on the internet these days. Without being diagnosed it's hard to distinguish the legitimate people from the roleplayers. Especially in the case of DID (vs OSDD-1) where blacking out/ memory loss is part of the diagnostic material and it's extremely unlikely for them to realize they even have alters.

As someone who has had to moderate systems and "systems" it makes it difficult. People frequently claim to be systems just as an escape from responsibility. And ultimately it's not our fault or responsibility that you have DID. I'm not a mod here, so speaking from past actions but if you prove to be a danger to the larger community we still have to respond the same way.
If you choose to share that you have DID over the internet I don't think it's unfair for people to ask you if you have a professional diagnosis or not. I know how often DID is misdiagnosed a lot of therapists and psychologists don't even know what it is (Especially OSDD) but on the other hand it's not our responsibility from a moderative perspective. And just like any other illnesses or injury we're allowed to be skeptical.

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2020-11-23 19:01
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LycanTheory
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Post: #5
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 18:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  Hello! I have DID, and actually, there are more than just two disorders that cause headmates. PTSD can cause similar dissociative states, however from my reasearch schizophrenia does not cause this, however many people who have DID are often misdiagnosed w/ schizophrenia because of the intrusion of alters into reality. OSDD also causes alters and similar states.

This is something I will look into, thank you. Smile

(2020-11-23 18:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  Many people who have DID will often not get diagnosed because (1) fear of medical professionals, who oftentimes know much less about the condition than the person who actually has said condition, and (2) if you dissociate eveytime another alter comes out and fronts (which according to the dsm-v is not a requirement, but does happen) or they lose time frequently, then the person may not even realize they need to get a diagnosis, or that there is something wrong with them. People also shouldn't be forced to divulge their medical history for others to decide if they're valid or not, especially for something like DID where many people do not get professionally diagnosed for mant many reasons.

On the mental health system, at least in the US there is a very fine, sometimes ambiguous, line between mental health and criminal justice so I find this a fair point, especially on conditions which tend to carry more stigma.

I do not, however, understand why a person would so freely disclose their condition without talking about some background or offering some insight into it. This perhaps need not be a formal diagnosis but for example: claiming something like DID without any context as seems much like laying claim to being a therian and not disclosing how or why. It's contradictory to those of us who are more logical minded and raises suspicion.

A bit of an aside but related note, Tumblr glorified all this stuff so that one's theriotype, hobbies or interests took a backseat to their lists of 15 different pronouns and 35 different ailments when introducing oneself.


(2020-11-23 18:38)searchingforvanora Wrote:  plurality does not, and should not require treatment, at least not to the degree of getting rid of the person's system. plurality was caused by the person's brain coping with horrible trauma, and by getting rid of alters or even and entire system it forces unneeded and triggering trauma onto the main of the system, and may leave them worse off in the long run. singlettes need to understand that systems are a coping mechanism.

If it causes significant distress or disruption to a person's life or to the lives of those close to them, I would certainly say it is something that does carry the responsibility of treating or otherwise managing to eliminate or mitigate the distress/disruptive capacity.

If it is not disruptive or distressful, significantly, why is it in the DSM? Of course, not all cases will convey the same intensity, degree or scope of affects to every individual.

If pluralty is sheerly a coping mechanism for trauma, it is understandable as to why a coping mechanism would not need to be treated but I would argue that the trauma itself should be addressed through some effective means. Is pluralty an effective mean? Or is it maladaptive and does it add to a person's hardship?

If these things are true, an animal plural I would say is valid but for the same reason we do not consider copinglink to be therians, I would argue that plural animal identities are not therians, either unless "animal" existed prior to the trauma.

Lyc
2020-11-23 19:19
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Post: #6
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
People do claim to have DID when they do not, but i can assure you it harms people who DO have DID far more than it harms people who do not. for example, it causes discussions like this, where a few bad apples coase everyone to stigmatize systems more, and causes singlets to discuss the validity of actual systems. there's also the fact that many systems and their mains have been abused by people fakinng this condition. a good way to tell if someone is not actually a system is by seeing if they refer to themselves as an "endogenic" system. that person may have identity issues, but they are not a system because again, you must have trauma to be a system. many systems i know have been activly abused and manipulated by endogenics, it's a horror story amoung the DID community, and something in every group.

i will not engage in discourse around tumblr, that's not what I'm here to discuss

people do not often go around collecting diagnoses for fun, and people will say they have DID because they know themselves best, and have done serious and heavy introspection over many many years, that have lead to them realizing who they are. it's difficult to come to terms with having a highly stigmatized disorder, it takes a lot of research, especially since it's not a disorder you hear discussed often in media unless it's portraying it in a horrible (and very misinformed and ignorant) light such as in horror movies like Split.

DID systems are literally meant to be invisible both to the outside eye and to the person who has it. it can be disruptive or disstressing to some people, but there are also things on the dsm that are not disruptive or disstressing, not much mind you, but there is. again however, the system formed as a way to help the main cope, and it would be more disruptive and disstressing to deal with the trauma and to not have the system.

DID is a coping skill and a survival mechanism. a well adjusted system can go about their daily life without much issue. as for treating the trauma that can take years, and some trauma may never heal. a system is a much more immediate help, and as trauma heals system members may change, go away, or reform. it is all up to the system and the main to decide how to treat their own trauma. treating trauma may sometimes make things worse for a while, and then the alters come in handy as a way for the brain to compartmentalize the trauma and cope with things. there are certain types of alters that can form that can hurt the main, but therapy can help to reform those alters into a more positive form, with a better purpose. it's incredibly difficult to get rid of a survival skill, and it's very hard to be lonely

EDIT: i forgot to include this in my reply, but therianthropy and DID are not mutually exclusive. i am a therian as you all know. I have multiple animal alters, who are literal anthro animals, but do not consider themselves therians. i also have a humanoid alter who is a snowy owl therian, not because she copes by identifying as a snowy owl, but simply because she is a snowy owl. alters can have personalities and lives, although some alters are just emotions. for this reason she is a therian.

legalize awoo 2020
(This post was last modified: 2020-11-23 20:06 by searchingforvanora.)
2020-11-23 19:58
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LycanTheory
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Post: #7
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 19:58)searchingforvanora Wrote:  People do claim to have DID when they do not, but i can assure you it harms people who DO have DID far more than it harms people who do not. for example, it causes discussions like this, where a few bad apples coase everyone to stigmatize systems more, and causes singlets to discuss the validity of actual systems. there's also the fact that many systems and their mains have been abused by people fakinng this condition. a good way to tell if someone is not actually a system is by seeing if they refer to themselves as an "endogenic" system. that person may have identity issues, but they are not a system because again, you must have trauma to be a system. many systems i know have been activly abused and manipulated by endogenics, it's a horror story amoung the DID community, and something in every group.

I thank you greatly for the insight you've provided in this thread and I'd like to be clear that my purpose in starting it was not to further stigmitize anyone who experiences DID or anyone that's experienced trauma to that severe a degree.

Regardless of how little or significant of a pain in the butt imposters have been to someone like me, I acknowledge and understand that the damage they cause to those who do actually experience the condition is far greater.

The above quote is very helpful. The information and insight we have, the better able we are to make assessments and the more effective we can be at weeding out imposters, to everyone's benefit. Smile

Lyc

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2020-11-23 20:17
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Post: #8
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Thank ypu Lyc, i appreciate it a lot. I'm glad I was able to help and provide a better understanding, and a way to help identify who is and isn't a system without invalidating others.

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2020-11-23 20:34
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Atlantis
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Post: #9
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
(2020-11-23 19:58)searchingforvanora Wrote:  A good way to tell if someone is not actually a system is by seeing if they refer to themselves as an "endogenic" system. that person may have identity issues, but they are not a system because again, you must have trauma to be a system.

I actually disagree with the anti-endogenic movement, as I've met a lot of them. You say a lot of bad apples have poisoned the waters for DID...well maybe it's the same way for endogenic systems. A lot of them I've met are systems for spiritual reasons (like tulpamancy) and don't claim to have DID or any other mental illness. I don't personally practice tulpamancy but people should be allowed to carry out their spiritual beliefs as long as they're not infringing on those with actual mental illnesses

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2020-11-23 21:04
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LycanTheory
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Post: #10
RE: Plurality, systems, ect
Atlantis Wrote:  I actually disagree with the anti-endogenic movement, as I've met a lot of them. You say a lot of bad apples have poisoned the waters for DID...well maybe it's the same way for endogenic systems. A lot of them I've met are systems for spiritual reasons (like tulpamancy) and don't claim to have DID or any other mental illness. I don't personally practice tulpamancy but people should be allowed to carry out their spiritual beliefs as long as they're not infringing on those with actual mental illnesses

Okay, this is what I was getting at when I asked if some of this stuff could have spiritual attribution. I think you have a fair point, Atlantis. Perhaps both groups have received undue stigma as a result of association with bad people.

Lyc

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(This post was last modified: 2020-11-23 21:16 by LycanTheory.)
2020-11-23 21:15
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